The intersection between Blockchain and Intellectual Property w/ Nate Hararison

The intersection between Blockchain and Intellectual Property w/ Nate Hararison

About this Podcast:

Welcome back to “The Valuart Podcast”: a weekly appointment with art, crypto art & technology. In this episode, we discover the latest news from the NFT and we chit-chat with an ip expert: Nate Harrison. The First news is about Damien Hirst and The Currency Project. The famous artist is creating a collection of 10000 unique works and people can decide which version they should get – the NFT or the physical artwork. Then Eddie takes us to Terra0, a project about the environment and Ethereum, that provides a new future to forests. In the episode, Izzy and Eddie talk with Nate Harrison, a writer and an artist working at the intersection of intellectual property and cultural production. The discussion with the expert is focused on the right of ownership of a work, the recreation of an original, and how the Blockchain can help us. Valuart is an NFTs oriented ecosystem. Founded by Vittorio Grigolò, Michele Fiscalini e Etan Genini, Valuart has the aim to facilitate the success of leading artists within the digital sphere and enhance their legacy. Valuart will introduce by the end of the year several Unique NFT from some of the greatest Masterpieces ever made.

Listen to the specific part

00:00
Intro
02:40
Artificial Intelligence
05:32
Spike Auction is Live
06:39
Damien Hirst: The Currency Project
13:18
Dame Dush Sued by Roc-A-Fella
15:45
terra0 project
22:25
Nate Harrison
28:19
Copyright 101: Art leads, The Law follows
30:55
Appropriation Art
47:22
Fair Use
56:02
Law and machine learning
60:00
US Copyright LAW

Episode Transcript:

The Value Art Podcast Welcome Back To The Value Art Podcast Eddie Here With My Co-Host Izzy Uh This Is Episode Three Today Is The First Day We Have Our Co-Producer Mark With Us Uh I Like I Said On The Second Episode I Felt Like I Identified With Mark'S Boundless Curiosity I Think Was The Terminology I Used And I Really Do Like Just Getting To Know Him And He'S Listening Now So It'S A Little Awkward Because He'S Not Actually Speaking Back To Me But I Know He'S There Listening But Mark I Want To Say I'M Really Happy To Have You On The Team And I'M I'M Enjoying So Far Working Together And Uh Don'T Mess That Up For Me Because I Don'T I Don'T Want To Replace You Just Kidding Mark I Also Subscribed To Your Your Newsletter And Talked To You On Instagram And I Saw That You'Re A Bookworm Like Me So I Can'T I Really Can'T Wait To Have The Chance To You Know Exchange Books Because Mark Doesn'T Have The Ability To Plug Himself Right Now I Will Do It For Him Everybody Who'S Listening Go Go Check Out Apocalypse Daddy His Blog It'S Fantastic It'S Really Fun Really Engaging And Uh Quite Insightful In Terms Of Like Exactly What We'Re Going Over On On The Value Our Podcast Like Learning About These New Frontiers Uh With Art And Technology I Think I Might Have Mentioned It In The Last One He Has This Really Great Article About The Internet 3.0 And The Metaverse And I Love It It'S Great So Go Check That Out Um Let'S Let'S Get Into The Episode I Guess Izzy'S Luckily Joining Us She Almost Wasn'T Able To Make The Episode Because Uh Where Were You You Were In Greece Right Yeah I Was In Greece And They Changed Like Uh I Thought I Wouldn'T Be Able To Return To Italy Your Flight Was Canceled It Was It Was Cancelled Because There Was A A Strike Here In Italy For Um Those Who Controlled The Towers So Couldn'T Couldn'T Depart And That'S Why We Really Need Technology To Not Have People Controlling The Towers Completely Like I Wanted To Be Completely Handled By Technology The Air Traffic Controllers You Want Yeah You Want That There To Be No Here No Humans I Just Want To Technology After Monday I Want You To Do Some Research For The Next Episode Tell Me If That'S Possible And Tell Me If That'S Something That'S In Development Now Because I Don'T Know If I Feel Comfortable With It And I'Ll Tell You If I Change My Idea If It'S Just Like Me Being Frustrated For What Happened On Monday Mark Is Saying I Agree Human Error Is Dangerous When It Comes To Blades And Strikes Especially Strikes Mark But Should We Get Into It Real Quickly Like A Brief Conversation About This Because I Think It'S It Is Maybe Something We Should Make An Episode Out Of But The The Idea That Like We Leave It Up To Machines To Decide That The Trolley Problem You Know What I Mean Like The Kill One Human Kill Five Humans Thing Like Like Tesla'S Like Self-Driving Cars Deciding Whether Or Not Like They Should Swerve Out Of The Way Of Someone Crossing The Street Or Hit A Pole You Know Like That Is Such A Weird Complicated Conversation To Have Yeah So I Kind Of Exaggerated Probably Out Of Anger But Um So I I Still Wanna Understand To Be There Like Somebody But You Know I Don'T Mind If There'S Like If They Want To Strike For A Day I Don'T Mind If Artificial Intelligence Like Takes The Lead For The Day I Mean Ah Okay So You'Re Saying To Fill In The To Fill In The Gaps For The Humans That Don'T Want To Perform But Um Why Would They Why Would We Need Humans Then I Mean I Guess What Artificial Intelligence Is Going To Help Us With Really Is This Right The Error Because Sometimes The Human Can Identify The Error But What Like Artificial Intelligence Does That Step Ahead It Identifies What The Cause Is Sometimes The Way We Can'T Identify The Cause It Really Goes Down To The Roots And I Believe That It Can Also Offer Us Solutions Right Because Now It'S More Us Going Towards Information Right We Need To Repair Something We Go On Internet We Search For This And I Think With The Advancement Of Technology It'S Going To Be The Information Coming Towards Us If My My Washer Is Um Not Working How It Is Right Now Is That I Have To Call The Technician He Sends Out Somebody Probably For Something That I Could Have Solved So Probably In The Future I'M Just Going To Put On My Augmentative Glasses Call The Technician Actually I'M Going To Call Like The Bot And He'S Gonna Guide Me Through How To Repair It And I Avoided Spending Money For A Technician They Avoided Having To Come Out I Fully Support My Appliances Telling You When They Need To Be Serviced And How I Don'T Know If I Support My Car Deciding To Kill Mirror To Kill Somebody Else But They'Re Not Gonna Do That Come On You Have To Be Positive Yeah Yeah I Know For Air Traffic Control Though Maybe It Is Actually A Good Application I Think Like I Worked At The Faa Actually One Summer As An Intern And I Remember A Tour Of The Of The Tower And The Air Traffic Controllers Being Like This Is One Of The Most Stressful Jobs I Think There Is Yeah I Think An Incredibly High Suicide Rate For For Air Traffic Controllers A Lot Of Responsibility And You'Re Never Off You'Re Like When You'Re There You'Re Never Off There'S No Downtime You Don'T Get To Like Look Away And Make Uh Your Mistakes Could Kill People So I Couldn'T Live With That It Was Quite A Tangent A Nice One Uh So First I'Ll Start With Value Art News And Then We'Ll Move Into Some Uh Art And Nft News But Value Art News The The Biggest News Obviously Is Our Auction Is Live We Went Live Last Thursday Spike Is Currently Sitting At Five Ethereum As I Last Checked I Haven'T I Haven'T Checked In The Last Like Hour Or So Yeah But What'S What'S Amazing About That Is That From What I'Ve Seen Of Other Digital Auction Sites And Just Auctions That Last A Prolonged Period Like A Lot Of The A Lot Of The Movement Happens In Like The Last Couple Hours Of The Last Few Minutes Right It Does If We Have Activity Like That Was One Of The Things We Weren'T Exactly Sure About Is There Going To Be Any Activity Confirmed People Are Watching People Are Involved I'Ve Heard From Our Producers That There Are Quite A Few Wallets Uh Attached To The Platform So We Know That People Are There With With Intention So I'M Really Curious To See How Tomorrow Goes With It Being The Last Day I'M Expecting A Lot A Lot More Activity Like Towards The End Everybody Like Probably I'M Going To Bid Too Are You It'S Already At Geez We'Ve Already Passed My Level Of Ability To Bid Yeah My Range For Investing In A Piece Of Art Uh Is Quite Low But There'S An Interesting Project That Was Launched Last I Think Last Week Or At The Beginning Of This Month Um Damien Hurst The Currency Project Which We I Want To Talk A Little Bit About That Because I Find It Fascinating And I Actually Registered For The Auction It'S Like You Have To Register With Metamask Even To Be Eligible To Potentially Buy One Of The Pieces But The Currency Is A Collection Of Ten Thousand Nfts And Uh It'S Unique In That The Artist Is Giving The Collectors Uh The Ability To Decide Do They Want The Digital Do They Want The Nft Or Do They Want A Physical The Physical Version Of The Work So There'S 10 000 Unique Works It'S Damien Hurst Like Dot Work Which Is Not Super Impressive But It Is Unique It Wasn'T Printed It Was Handmade And There Are 10 000 Of Them So You Could Own A Damien Hurst Original And Hang It On Your Wall For What Is Going For 2 000 For The Work Um Or You Could Decide I Would Rather Have The Nft But The Catch Is Once You Choose The Other Is Destroyed So You Choose The Physical The Digital The Digital The Nft Is Burned Or If You Choose The Nft The Digital Is Destroyed So Only One Can Exist And Damien Hurst Is Asking The Collector Like What Do You Where Do You Place The Value What What Do You Think Is Valuable And I Love That I Love That Part Of It So Wait Like He Would Actually Destroy The Physical If You Choose The Digital Yeah Yeah Yeah And It'S A It'S A Brilliant Question Because It'S Exactly What We'Re Talking About These Days With Like The Value Of Digital Art Like Can You Get Value Out Of A Digital Piece Of Art Something That Can Be Replicated Infinitely I'Ve Had Sort Of Like A Love-Hate Relationship With His Work In The Past And I'Ve Never Been Like Truly Impressed With The Execution Of Certain Things But This To Me Is Is Perfect It'S Aware It'S Creative It'S Clever It'S Sort Of Cynical But Not Not At The Same Time And I Love That I Think That That'S A Necessary Conversation To Be Having And He Has Such An Immense Platform To Do It So I'M I'M Really Happy To Share This With Our With Our Platform And I I'M Curious What I Don'T Know I'M Here Izzy What Do You Think About It I Mean It'S Insane Um It'S He'S Really Putting You In Front Of On What Like Where Do You Stand Right And It'S Not Easy Because Especially Now When Something Is So New You Really Have Like You Really Have To Be Convinced Hey By The Way Does He Send You Like A Picture That He Destroyed Like The Piece Of Art Like I I Wonder I Don'T Know How That If It'S Going To Be Like A Ceremony Or Something Or If You Get Like Um I Don'T Know I I Imagine It Just Sort Of Happens Maybe There'S A Smart Contract Involved Uh I Don'T Know Um Nfts Right Now Especially And Probably For A While Are Gonna Are Pure Speculation Like Investing In One Is Is Purely Sp Speculative In That It'S Gonna Be Worth Something Sooner Or Later But Here You Have The Choice Of Investing In A Physical Piece Still If You Wanted To I Wonder If That Is Going To Be If If The The Fact That It Had A Digital Counterpart That Was Destroyed Will Impact The Value Of The Physical Work If If We'Ll See A Correlation Between The Value Of The Nfts Versus The Physical Works On A Secondary Market For Example But I Wonder What Do You Think The Percentage Will Be In Terms Of Like Who Who Chooses What Out Of The 10 000 That Are Out There Like I Think It'S More A Generation Thing I'Ll Be Honest Um Not That We'Re Dinosaurs But We Find Ourselves Like I Think We'Re The Most Confused Like Not Confused Um That It'S Like A Hard Decision For Us Gen Z Wouldn'T Even Think About It Like They Would Go Right For Digital Right Right Right For The Nfg They Wouldn'T Even Like Blink An Eye This Is Also Like You Have The Generational Thing Of Course But You Also Have These Two Worlds Like Damian Hurst Coming From The Traditional Art World And Crypto Being Such A New Like Techy Thing That Like I Think A Lot Of The A Lot Of The Potential Investors In This I'M Imagining Are Gonna Not Be Interested In It From The Art Side But More From The Tech Side The Financial Side You Know Like The The Crypto Side And And I Wonder If That If That'S Going To Impact The The Way We See This Split I Wonder How Many Of Those People Crypto Investors Are Are Even Interested In Physical Products At All Or If It Goes In That Direction Or If There'S If There Is An Interest In Having An Nft For A Physical Works Or If Digital Is Good Enough For People I Think At Some Point Digital Is Gonna Be Like Good Enough What Would You Choose In This Case You Would Choose The The Nft In This Period I'M Really Into Enough To You So I'M All About It Like I I Was Talking To My Boyfriend The Other Day Like When We Talk About Our Future Home We'Re Already Thinking About Like Buying Like Panels To Put Our Entities Right Um So I Know We'Re Thinking Like In The Entrance We Want To Have Like Our Nfts Portrayed So And That'S Like The Other Day When We Were Looking At The Pictures Of Uh Valley Arts Space You Know Physical Space We Were Like Oh My Gosh Like This Is Inspiration Yeah Like I Need That In My House Add It To Your Pinterest Board Yes Yeah Yeah Nice Yeah I Think I Would Personally Choose The Physical Piece I Think Just Like Saying That I Have A Physical Yeah But I Was Also Like I Was Talking To Mark About This Earlier It Would Be A Dumb Decision For Me To Get The Physical Piece Because I Would Probably Lose It Or Or Not Take Good Care Of It Knowing Myself Think About It Imagine You Have Like I Don'T Know Your Own Place With All Your Uh Paintings Like Physical Paintings And Then A Certain Point I Don'T Know Like You Know What Happens Like Especially Now In Europe With All These Like Climate Change Right And It Rains Like Really Really Bad And All Your Paintings Get Destroyed Right That Wouldn'T Happen That Wouldn'T Happen With Nmt'S Because That'S Part Of The Value Is It'S Rarity It'S Scarcity Right That'S That'S Part Of What Makes Nft Special Is It Allows The Digital Art To Have That And So I Guess You'Re Right It'S It'S A Way Of Having Something Super Rare And Super Hard To Replace But Not At Risk Of Water Damage Yeah Or Expires Anything Yeah It'S Like Mine Forever Yeah Like I Feel Like Gollum Now Like With The Ring Yeah But Um Yeah So I Want To Touch On A Couple Of Other Items Of News Before We Get Into Your Newsletter Dame Dash Was Sued By Rockefeller Records For Selling An Nft That He Didn'T Have The Copyright To Which Is Interesting Because We'Re Going To Talk To Our Guest Today Nate Harrison About Copyright Intellectual Property Uh And Nate Has Has This Background In Uh Sort Of Exploring This Through The Realm Of Music So I Thought This Was An Interesting Story To Touch On Now What Was What Was Great About The Story And The Reason I Think It'S It'S Fun Is Because He Didn'T Just Take It Down And Like Address It He Took It Down And Instead He Put His One-Third Share Of Of The Label On Sale As An Nft Which I Think Is Such A Bold Thing To Do Like But How Does That Work How Do You How Do You Put One Third Of Your Shares In A Company On Sale As An Nft Apparently It'S Not Actually Like If You Were To Buy The Nft You Don'T Actually Become 33 Owner Of Uh Rockefeller Records But It'S A Promise For The Transaction To Happen At Some Point In The Future So It'S A Bit Ambiguous But I Think That Was Worth Bringing Up For Me Because It Just Reminded Me That This Whole This Whole Thing Is So Undefined Still You Can Do Anything With An Nft You Can You Can Bake Anything Into A Smart Contract You Can Really Design It However You Want So That'S Exciting I Mean It'S Kind Of Weird In This Case I Think It'S More Of A Publicity Thing Than Anything But There Are A Lot Of Exciting Projects Coming Out Now That Are Not Just About Owning The Rights To A Jpeg You Know What I Mean Absolutely No Let'S Talk A Little Bit About Smart Contracts Something I'M Just Starting To Understand Smart Contracts Are Essentially A Computer Program Developed By A Human To Execute Automatically And You Can Really Design Them To Be Anything And An Oracle Like Chain Link For Example Allows You To Extend The Functionality Of That Smart Contract Outside Of Just The Blockchain Itself Is Essentially A Third-Party Service That Provides Smart Contracts More Information Remember The Tara Zero Thing I Sent You Yeah Yeah Like The White Paper On Exactly So Tara Zero Is Really Cool I Think It'S A Great Example Of The Potential Of Blockchain And And And Smart Contracts For The Purpose Of Art But Actually For The Purpose Of Like Changing Our Environment And The World And How We View It Which I Guess Is Kind Of What Art Is Supposed To Do Right It Is But So Tara Zero Is An Organization That'S Using Blockchain To At First The White Paper Was About Giving A Forest Of Like An Actual Forest Sort Of Autonomy Or Ownership Over Itself And Being Able To Distribute Its Assets And Essentially Hire Humans As Laborers To Harvest Itself And Like Have Control Over Its Production Which I Think Was Like Insane To To Conceptualize That At First I Read That And I Was Like What A Forest Controlling Itself Amazing But More Recently They Created This Nft Called Two Degrees Which Uses Smart Contracts Uh A Smart Contract And An Oracle To Destroy Itself If The Global Average Temperature Increases Above Two Degrees Okay Yeah So It Uses An Article To Read Nasa'S Evaluation Of The Global Average And If At Some Point That Surpasses Two Degrees The Nft Will Burn Itself Or It Will It Will Initiate The Ability For It To Burn Itself But A Human Has To Confirm That That Is True And It Wasn'T An Error And Then It'Ll Yeah It'Ll Destroy Itself Which It'S A Commentary On On How We'Re Treating Our Natural Resources And I Think It'S A Great Example Of How Art And Technology Can Really Be Used To Make A Positive Impact But What'S Sort Of Hypocritical About It Is This Idea That You'Re Using A Technology In Ethereum In A Blockchain Which Is Is In Some Ways Harmful To The Environment Like I Think Is Ethereum Is Still Proof Of Work Right It'S Proof Of Work But It'S Uh It'S Schools To To Become Proof Of A Stake This Year I Guess It Makes More Sense That They Would Use This To To Make This Statement Because I Just Seemed Kind Of Hypocritical To Me At First To Do Something Like This To Try To Save Our Natural Resources By Using More Energy Destroying More Resources I Mean In A Way That'S Also Making The Statement It'S Also Making The Same Point I Guess But Can I Ask You Like Do They Have A Limited Quantity Of Nfts That They'Re Saying They'Re Gonna Destroy As They Do Um You Know Receive I Believe It'S Just One Nft I Don'T Know So There'S Just Like One And When Are They Going To Be Evaluating The Contract Runs Once A Year Okay Awesome But I Mean That'S That'S Still An Expensive Thing To Run Right It'S Still Expensive To Run A Smart Contract In An Oracle Like That Because Of The Amount Of Nodes Correct I Guess They Probably Know The Goal Of Ethereum To Come Proof Of Stake Um And Know That That Will Be Less Harmful To The Environment So I'M I'M Guessing That'S Kind Of Their Belief This Use Of Blockchain As As The Actual Media For Art Is So Fascinating To Me Rather Than Just Having A Digital Asset Like Actually A Procedural Piece Of Art Built On Blockchain That'S That'S Exciting That'S Something I Want To Explore More Of Next Week I'Ll Go More Into The Technical Side Of The Difference Between Um Proof Of Work And Proof Of Stake So Stay Tuned For Next Time But Another News That I Really Love This Week And That I Feel Like A Huge Fomo Um Is In The Nft And Gaming Industry It'S Axi Infinity That Went Up 131 Um So I'Ve Been Looking A Lot Lately Into You Know Play To Earn Games I Haven'T Had The Chance To Play Because I Don'T Have Time But Um It'S Definitely Something That I You Know Really Caught My Attention And Said This Is Gonna Change Everything Like Especially For Who'S You Know The Younger Generations Right Now But Like Making A Career Out Of Game Yeah Just Not For Like Not For Like Through Twitch Streaming Or Through Like Uh Like Patreon Or Something You Mean Just Like Playing The Game Yeah And Earning A Weight Wages From That How Does That Work Like What Does It What How Is It Hours Is It Like Are They Doing Mining While They'Re Planning Like What Is The Money So The Money Comes From So I I Still Have To Play It I'M I Swear This Weekend I'M Gonna Take Some Time To Download It And Play So Practically You Have These Little Fluffy Cute Little Things Animals If You Can Call Them They'Re Called Axes You Purchase Them You Breed Them You Grow Them They Have Also Some Challenges Betw Between Other Axes And That'S How You Earn Is Like Crypto Kitties Or Crypto Yikes Exactly It'S Practically The Same It'S Very Similar To Um Cryptokitty So You'Re Buying You'Re You'Re Investing Into The Platform By Buying The Assets Already Exactly So You Need To Is There Is There A Fee To Play Is There Like A Subscription To Play Or Is It Free I'Ll Find Out This Week And I'Ll Let You Know Next Week Your Homework Is To Play This Game This Weekend And Then Report Back It Really Is It'S Like One Of My Primary Goals But What I What I Understood Is That These Slps Um Of Course It'S Like An Investment I Buy Them And Then The Value Grows I Earn Hoping It It Really Like Explodes But I Mentioned A Little Bit That We'Re Having A Guest On Nate Harrison And Uh Someone I'M Really Excited To Talk To Um We'Re Gonna Discuss A Little Bit About Appropriation Art And Uh Fair Use Appropriation Art Specifically Is Using Pre-Existing Objects Or Or Iconic Imagery Or Things From Other Artists To Make Your Message Clear To To Make Your Work Make Sense As An Artist It'S A Very Gray Area For Art And Artists And There'S Been A Lot Of Legislation Litigation Around It And I Think It'S Worth Discussing Because I There There Are Areas Where Blockchain Has The Potential To Solve Ownership Provenance Which I Pronounced Wrong In The First Episode I Said Provenance Provenance And Uh Digital Rights And Managing Digital Rights Having Centralized Or Decentralized Registries For Copyright For Example With The Benefits Of The Blockchain So Being Permissionless Being Distributed And Transparent And Having No Single Point Of Failure And Being Sort Of Tamper Resistant And Peer-To-Peer I Think Seeing Those Aspects Augmenting Our Existing Systems Like What Does That Look Like And I I Don'T Know If Nate Has Any Position On This But It'S Something That I'M Interested In Exploring And I Imagine Other People Who Are Enthusiasts Of The Technology And Enthusiasts Of The Art Are Are Wondering So Let'S Bring Nate On And See What He Has To Say About Some Of These Things Cool So Nate Welcome To The Value Art Podcast Value Art Is A Platform For Auctioning For Minting Auctioning Nfts With A Focus On Doing Digital Originals Of Iconic Physical Works Of Art So Creating A One-To-One Copy Of A Piece Of Art And With The With The Help Of The Artist Or The Collector And Then Auctioning It On Our Platform And Uh Pretty Much Extending The Audience Or The Reach Of The Of The Original Piece When You Say One To One If The Painting Is Say Four Feet By Three Feet The Commensurate Nft Would Also Be Four Feet By Three Feet It'S A I Mean That Doesn'T Really Make Any Sense I Guess Because It'S A Digital Work But I I Think It'S More About The Details Uh The The The Resolution And It'S Not That'S What I Mean Necessarily Yeah Yeah Yeah So The Resolution Would Equate To One To One Um So The First The First Drop Our First Drop Is A Banksy It'S A It'S A Spike Which Is This Piece Of Uh Rock From The West Bank From The Wall That Banksy Did A Scavenger Hunt With Back In Like 2004 2003 So That'S A Little Bit About Value Art But What I'M Curious About Is Is Let'S Just Start With An Introduction Tell Us Who You Are Tell Us What You Do And Tell Us Tell Us Why You Think I'M Interested In Talking To You Today About About This Intersection Of Art And Technology Sure Um My Name Is Nate Harrison I Am An Artist And Writer My Primary Sort Of Field Of Expertise Has Been Precisely That Intersection Of Contemporary Art And United States Intellectual Property Law And I Tend To Stress The Us Part Of It Just Because These Kinds Of Laws Although They Overlap To Some Degree Around The World They Are Particular To Their Own Country'S Sets Of Laws So My Own Particular Specialty Has To Do Specifically With The United States Law The United States Concepts Of Fair Use For Example Which Is Not The Same In Other Places So Yeah I'Ve I'Ve Been Interested In The Way Ways That Art Kind Of Interacts In With The Law Uh Yeah For Probably Probably Since The Yaman Break Project Actually Which Is One Of My First Very First Projects Um And I Was Interested In That At The Time You Know As You Might Remember From You Know Through Think About Music And Calculate But To Tell You The Truth I I Kind Of Got Into That Project Not Having Really Much Knowledge About Law Um As Much As I I Had Been Making Music I I Was A Kind Of A Self-Taught You Know Bedroom Electronic Music Producer And Just Was In That Sort Of Community In New York City At The Time That Was Really To Break The Culture And Whatnot So I Knew The Story Of The Man Break Only Through The You Know Through The The Community That Was In The Musicians Very Little Did I Know About Copyright Law Or Anything Like That So It Was Just In Doing The Research About That That I Kind Of Discovered This Whole Other Domain Of Thinking About Cultural Production Through The Lens Of Intellectual Property Law And So That Became Very Interesting To Me Actually And I Kind Of The Music Aspect Of It Although I Still Love To Listen To And To Make A Music Make Music Occasionally Um That Became Less Interesting To Me Than The Sort Of Legal Implications Of Artistic Production I Ended Up Going And Writing A Phd About It And You Know Writing Things About It In Various Books And Journals And Whatnot And Serving On You Know Serving On Various Copyright Cases And Um And Whatnot So Yeah That'S Just Kind Of In My Interest Um And Then And Then I Kind Of Shifted Focus From Music More Into Visual Art Because That At The Time This Is Maybe About 10 Or 12 Years Ago There Really Wasn'T That Much Writing About Visual Art And The The Kind Of The Entanglements Of Intellectual Property At That Time Now There'S Much More But Yeah Okay So Um Was Your Was Your Interest In Pursuing Visual Arts Motivated By The The Law Side Of It Well I Went To Art School For My Master'S Degree I Went To Cal Arts Out In California And That'S Actually I Was Really Lucky That'S A Really Great School If Only Because It Blends A Lot Of Students Together It Kind Of Puts Lots Of You Know Students With Lots Of Different Interests Into Kind Of One Boiling Pot Um So I Was I Actually Applied To And Was Accepted Into That School Into The Music School Oh Wow Um And When I Got There Though I Discovered That The Conversations That Were Being Had In The Music School Although They Were Kind Of Fascinating On Some Level They Weren'T They Just Didn'T Really Speak To Me Whereas Weirdly The Conversations That Were Happening In The Arts Part Of The School Were Super Fascinating To Me And So I Started Thinking About Sound And Music Through The Lens I Guess Of Visual Art And I Just Kind Of Slowly But Surely Got More And More Into The Conversation About Visual Art Um Then I Made The The Unmanned Break Piece And That Kind Of Exposed Me To Intellectual Property Law So Then I Asked Myself What If I Started Thinking About Visual Art Through Ip Law And So Again I Decided That I Wasn'T Done With This Project Yet I Actually Wanted To Write A Lot More About It And So I Went And Did A Phd And Kind Of Really Just Immersed Myself Purely In The Kind Of Visual Art In An Ip Law Side Of Things So When I Reached Out To You I Was Curious About Discussing The Some Overlap Some Parallels Between The Golden Age Of Sampling And What I'M Seeing Now In The Digital Art Space In Terms Of Authorship And Ownership And How Complicated That World Is So If Like I Know You Don'T I Don'T Want To Spend Too Much Time Talking About The Specifics Of The Sampling Era And And That Transition But Tell Me A Little Bit About What You Learned And What Surprised You Then And What You Took Into Your Uh Your Endeavors As A Visual Artist Um That'S A Good Question I I Guess I Would Say That That Culture Always Kind Of Leads The Way Cultural Production Always Leads The Way Artistic Production Always Leads The Way Um The Law Is Always Behind It Is Always Responding To A Situation It Is Never Proactively Creating A Situation And It'S Tried To Switch Those Roles It Has Been The Law Has Always Tried To Go From Being A Reactive Sort Of Mechanism To A Proactive Mechanism And It Mostly Fails In That Regard Just Because The Sort Of The Wheels Of The You Know The Cogs Of The Machine Can Only Move So Fast The Legal System Is Notoriously Slow And Legislation And Et Cetera Et Cetera Et Cetera But There Have Been Attempts Especially With The Explosion Of Digital Culture Over The Last 20 Plus Years Of The Law Trying To Catch Up With That With Like The Dmca And Um You Know The Algorithms That Youtube And Other Platforms Produce To Shut Down Like Preemptively Strike Preemptively Take Down Works Right It Used To Be The Case That The Only Way You'D Get Sued For Copyright Infringement Or Usually The Only Way You Get Sued Was For You To Commit Some Sort Of Alleged Infringement And Then The Person That Feels Infringed Comes After You Right Effectively But With The Yeah So With The Digital In The Digital Realm In In In The Contemporary Moment Over The Last 10 Or 20 Years There'S Been An Increasing Desire On The Part Of Platforms And Whatnot Youtube Etc To Take The Proactive Step To Make You Know To Make Algorithms Such That You Can'T Even Infringe Or Or Even Run The Risk Of Infringing Even If You Don'T Think You'Re Infringement They Don'T Even Give You The Option They Don'T Even Give You The Opportunity To Maybe Or Maybe Not You Know Infringe So That'S An Example Of The Kind Of The Proactive Side Of Things That I'M I'M Explaining You Mentioned Content Id Basically Right And Content Id Works Works Because You You Can You Can Easily Categorize And Archive A Piece Of Music In A Way Like They'Re It'S A It'S Very Easy To Identify Characteristics Of A Piece Of Music But I Think It'S Much More Complicated For Visual Works Um To To Say Like This Has Been Stolen From Me Or This Is My Work Originally And I Deserve Credit Or You Should Stop Using It Um Do You Know Anything Do You Can You Tell Us Anything That You'Ve Encountered Recently That Is That'S Trying To Address Those Concerns Like A Content Id But For Other Medias I Don'T Actually That'S A Great Question Because Um Yeah I Mean To Your Point That You'D Have To Essentially Have An Original Work Of Art Photographed Or You Know Reproduced In A Certain Way At A Certain Resolution Such That It Lines Up I Mean That'S That'S I Mean Because It'S Really Interesting What You'Re Pointing Out Because An Original Work Of Art Is Precisely That It'S An Originals And It Exists First And Foremost Usually In The Analog Domain Right Like Let'S Say A Painting On A Wall Versus Music Music Is Already Electronic Right Music Is Already A Digital Product Whether It'S A Cd Old School Technology Or Mp3S Or Whatever You'Re Streaming It Already Exists As It Only Exists And As A Matter Of Fact Pretty Much As A As A Digital File Right So It Is Much Easier To Align Say Do A Do An Algorithmic Sort Of Analysis Of An Mp3 File And Then Do An A B Comparison Between That And Some Other Thing That You Think Might Be Infringing Um But To Your Point You Know That'S I Think That Is Difficult To Do With Visual Art If You Have A Painting On A Wall You Photograph I Mean Maybe They Could Come Close But It Certainly Would Be Less Than Perfect And I Can'T Think Of Any I Mean Usually The Examples That I See With Regard To So-Called Machine Learning Or Ai Or Or Just You Know Studying Images And Detecting Their Patterns And Whatnot Really Doesn'T Have Much To Do With Copyright Infringement Although I Guess That Could Be An Application It'S Just As Much To Do With Surveillance And Um And Actually Creating Entire New Artworks Or New Images I'M Sure You Have Both Seen Those Websites Or I Think On Vice Where They Like Make People That Don'T Even Exist Right Person Does Not Exist Yeah It'S Really Creepy Actually Those Those Are Exciting To Me For Sure But I I'M Really I Want To Try To Imagine How These Technologies Are Supposed To Address The Concerns Of Copyright And Of Licensing And Just In General How Do You Feel About About Copyright And About Trying To Inhibit Copying And Reproduction And Appropriating Other Other Artists Works Personally As An Artist How Do You Feel About It Yeah Um I I Would Say That My Own Thoughts On These Have Developed Over Time And That I Have Become Ever So Slightly More Conservative As I'Ve Gotten Older Or As I'Ve Gotten Thinking About This More And More Which Is To Say Maybe 10 Or 15 Years Ago I Would Have Been Much More Copy Left Than I Am Now I I Still Am Fairly Copy Left I Still Believe In Sort Of Freedom Of Speech And The Ability For Artists To Sort Of Mostly Do What They Want To Do With The Images That They Find In The World But I Will Say I Also Do Believe In Copyright I Do Believe In The Principle Of Copyright I Think It Should Be I Think It Should Just Be A Practical Um Context Dependent Sort Of System Part Of The Reason Of This Kind Of Conservatism That I'M Talking About Is So Much Of What I'Ve Researched And Written About Has To Do With When Visual Artists Appropriate Photographs From Most Often Commercial Photographers And And Those Commercial Photographers Do Depend On The Selling And Licensing Of Their Photographs To Make A Living Do You Want To Talk About The The The Warhol Foundation Versus Goldsmith Case Recently The That Oh That Was Overturned Do You What Is Your Opinion On Actually For For Our Listener'S Sake Tell Us A Little Bit Of Background About That Because There Was A Decision In 2019 By The Ninth District And Then There Was An Overturning Recently So What What Happened There Yeah So That Is Probably The Latest Example Of This Kind Of Battle Between What I'M Going To Call The Commercial Photography World And The Contemporary Art World Richard Prince Still Has His Case Sort Of Brewing Right Now In The Court System Here In New York City And That Warhol Decision Probably Is Sending A Signal To Prince And His Lawyers That Like Things May Not Turn Out Well For Him Um But Yeah In That Case I Believe If I Remember Correctly I Forget What Magazine Was At Rolling Stone Or Vogue Or Vanity Fair Um They Commissioned Uh A Photographer To Take A Bunch Of Pictures Of Prince The Artist Prince Not To Be Confused With Richard Prince But The Musician Formerly Known As Prince Um And Took A Bunch Of Pictures Of Him And Then They Uh Also Commissioned Andy Warhol To Do One Of His Kind Of Signature Portraits We'Ve All Seen Versions Of These Whether It'S Marilyn Monroe Or Chairman Mao Or Whatever It Is These Kind Of You Know Glittery Neon Expressive Sort Of Flat High Contrast Portraits Com You Know Because They Commissioned Both Of These Things They Thought Everything Was Kind Of On The Up And Up Um But And Then Warhol Did Make A Portrait Based On One Of The Photographs Of Prince But It Turns Out That He Actually Made A Whole Series Of Paintings Based On That Portrait And The Photographer Never Really Understood That Whole Mechanism That Whole Process And So You Know The Original Photographer Got Paid For Doing The Photography All Well And Good Andy Warhol Presumably Got Paid For Making The Painting Which Then Appeared I Believe On The Cover Of Vanity Fair All Well And Good But Then The Rest Of Those Paintings The Rest Of The Series Eventually Found Its Way Into The Art Market Which You Know Warhol Being Warhol Probably Sold For Lots Of Money And The Photographer Did Not Give Permission For The Just The General Use Of Her Photographs Um You Know To Be Exploited Like That And So I Believe You Know Sued The Warhawk Foundation For Copyright Infringement And I Believe That The Um Courts Initially Did Find That That That Print The Prince That Warhol Uh Was Operating Under Fair Use Did Grant The Fair Use Exception But Then On The Appeal The Appellate Court Overturned That And Said That Those Did Not That The Paintings Did Not Constitute Fair Use And Yeah They Were Liable Hey They Didn'T Say It Was A Copy Or It Was Plagiarized But They Didn'T Not Say It Either Like It Was The The Language That They Used Was Was Very Much Like It Was Like Very Politically Correct Way Of Saying Like This Is This Was Stolen Without Saying It Directly I Think Which Is To Me Really Scary For For Pop Art And Just For Just Artists In General Because I'M I'M In The The Copy Left Camp I Think Where I'M Like Do Do What You Will With My Work But There'S Al There'S Obviously An Element Of That That I Don'T Like I Don'T Want To See A Corporation Stealing From A Small Artist And Taking Advantage Of Their Work But I Do Want To See Small Artists Being Able To Take What They Can From The World And Make New Things Out Of It So It Leads To The Transformation Which Is The Biggest Topic Of Of Contention I Think Around This Which Is Uh Talk A Little Bit About The First And The Fourth Or The Second And The Fourth Factors Of Of Fair Use And I Think You You Met Judge Lavalle Right I Think You You I Did Weirdly Enough At A Party I Met Him Completely Randomly And Judge Lavalle Is Responsible For Essentially The The The Way We Interpret Fair Use Now Right Yeah Yeah So Yeah So As Your Has Your Opinion Over You Said You Mentioned You Become A Little Bit More Conservative Which Surprises Me Actually Because I I Read It I Read Some Of What You Were Writing In 2013 And 2015 As Kind Of Conservative Personally But I'M Curious If That'S Changed At All For You In The Last Like Two To Three Years At All In Terms Of Fair Use Not Really Actually It Hasn'T Really Changed I Mean I Mean I Think That Conservatism Comes From Again Sort Of I Mean I Think What You Just Pointed Out A Second Ago Is Really Important Where You You Said Something Like You Don'T Want Corporations Inhibiting Like The Little Guy Or Whatever It Is I I Too Do Believe In This Idea Of Being Able To Punch Up In A Sense But Sort Of Not Punching Down Yeah Right And So I See A Lot Of Times I'Ll Take Richard Prince As An Example But Maybe The Warhawk Foundation Too Um Not Necessarily Corporations But Super Successful You Know Financially You Know Monetarily Very Wealthy Um Artists Contemporary Artists Whose Work Selling The Millions Of Dollars Essentially Taking From Uh Commercial Photographers Who Are Not In That Realm At All Uh You Know Sort Of In In Again Sort Of Win Their Their You Know Make Their Money By The Selling And Licensing Of Their Photographs Um As That Kind Of Punching Down And I Could See I Would Be More Sympathetic I Think If It Was You Know An Artist Uh Taking From Like A Corporation Or Some You Know Like Well-Known Images Or Something Like That But To Kind Of Prolong Images From Like The Little Guy And By The Little Guy I Mean Like A Freelance Commercial Photographer Because The Thing Is Even Those Photographers Like The One In The Warhol Case Or The One In The Richard Prince Case They'Re They'Re Fairly Successful Commercial Photographers I Mean They'Re Not They Don'T Operate At The Level Of Like Making Tens Of Millions Of Dollars The Way That You Know Prince Or Warhol Might Have Done That But They Do Okay But What The Problem Is Is If You Set A Precedent For The Allowance Of These Kinds Of Things And That Essentially Opens The Floodgates For Any Artist To Take Anything From Anybody At Any Time And It Really Does I Think In The Long Term Have The Runs The Risk Of Kind Of Screwing Over The Little Little Uh You Know Photographer Why Do You Why Do You Believe That Is Because It Feels To Me Like Uh If Even Just Getting Involved In A Litigation Like It Feels Like A Huge Burden On Smaller Artists To Have To Be Aware And Knowledgeable About This From The Beginning If They'Re Gonna Go And Use Someone'S Work They Have To Know What That Means Long Term And That To Me Isn'T The Point Of Making The Art In The First Place Right I Think It'S About Communicating Something That Doesn'T Have A Vocabulary For It Already So We Should Be Able To Take The Visuals That Help Us Communicate That Message And To Have To Then Learn The Legalese I Guess Is Counter Intuitive Or Counterproductive I Guess Uh Yeah I Guess I Would Mildly Debate That I I Think That Artists If There Are To Be Given Sort Of A Great Uh Deal Of Freedom Should Also Be Given Or Tasked With I Guess A Great Deal Of Responsibility And I Don'T Think Actually It'S That Much Of A Stretch For Artists To Learn What Fair Use Is And What The Four Fair Use Factors Are In Fact The College Art Association Makes A Fair Use Best Practices Guide Precisely For Artists It'S Like 20 Pages Long It Could You Could Read It In 20 Minutes So Just To Kind Of Familiarize Yourself With That Um Or You Know For The Artist To Familiarize Themselves With That At The End Of The Day I Think That This Comes Down Mostly To Artistic Intention And Right And I Think That Part Of The Sticking Point In Both The Prince Case And In The Warhol The Recent Warhol Case Is That It'S Unclear What The Artistic Intention Is And You Know Prince Especially And Warhol Ii Are Known For Kind Of Stylizing Photographs Which Is To Say Kind Of Transforming Them In A Certain Way But But It You Know You Have To Really Pull Teeth To Get Them To Explain What Their Intention Is Or Their Rationalities Or In Other Words The Justification For What The Why They'Re Doing What They'Re Doing And You You Believe That It Is A Requirement To Have To Explain That As An Artist You Should Have To You Should Have To Explain Your Intention For Creating The Piece I Think So And Maybe That Is The True Kind Of Conservatism Being Revealed Because I Know That That Is Is Kind Of A Traditional Way Of Thinking About Understanding Art But I Do Think That That Is I Don'T Yeah The Idea That You Shouldn'T Have To Explain Yourself Um Especially In A Court Of Law Um I Just Don'T Think That Flies Yeah I Mean It Doesn'T Logically It Doesn'T Make Any Sense To You Because You Need To You Need To Have Data You Need To Understand You Need To Make Informed Decisions I Don'T Know If You Have The Chance Or Ever Were Interested In Reading The The Depositions And The In All Of The Court Testimony In In The In The Richard Prince Case I Mean If You Read It It'S Kind Of Amazing Because He Is Asked You Know Point Blank What Do These Mean How Are You Justifying These What Is Your Artistic Intention And His Answer Is I Don'T Really Have An Intention I Just Like To Make Cool Stuff That'S All In My Art In My Painting My Paintings Are Cool Because I'M Richard Prince And Yeah It Doesn'T Matter It Doesn'T Help It Doesn'T Help In It But It Also Doesn'T Like It It Makes It The Reason I'M Worried About It Is Because If I As An Artist Want To Just Pursue An Impulse And An Artistic Impulse Without Really Understanding The Intention Yet But But Just Going With The Intuitive Nature Of Creating That Could Really Get You In A Lot Of Trouble Down The Line Especially If You Make Something Sort Of Groundbreaking For Yourself Or For Your Audience Or Whatever I Think You Then Need To Retroactively Decide What The Intention Was Or Retrospectively That Seems Weird Right And You Can Always Change That Later On It Does Seem Weird And You Bring Up You Bring Up Something That'S A Great Point And Also The Courts Have Actually Also Identified Which Is You Know The The The Or The The Legal You Know Lawyers Have In Other Words They'Ll Say This Whole Argument Judge Of Artists Needing To Have Intention Isn'T That Going To You Know Do It Do What You Just Said Right Which Is Artists Will Just Make Something And Then Post Facto Or Whatever Uh Yeah Put Some Sort Of Like Explanation Behind It Right Yeah I Mean It'S Funny Because Richard Prince Was Sued I Don'T Know Six Or Eight Years Ago For All Of These You Know Rasta Images That He Pilfered From A Book About You Know A Photographic Book Of Uh You Know Jamaicans And He Again In That Case He Just You Know I Just Kind Of Liked The Way They Looked I Just Kind Of Thought It Was Cool I Didn'T Really Care You Know I Just Thought It Was Cool It'S Funny Because If Um If He Would Have Said Something Like In This I'M Not Gonna Pull From Like The Jargon Of You Know Contemporary Art School Education If You Would Have Pulled Something Out Like Oh Well This Is My Critique Of Kind Of Post Colonialism And I'M Seeking To De-Center The Subject Of You Know White Privilege You Know If He Would Have Kind Of Couched It In Sort Of Like Art Speak I Sh I'M Sure It Would Have Gotten You Know Much A Very Different Response Yeah Yeah Yeah Um So I I Do Want To Talk A Little Bit Now About Appropriation And Like Your Opinion Of What Qualifies As Transformative Enough Or Or Intentional Enough Uh And I Want To Ask You About A Couple Examples So One Um Are You Familiar With Uh After Sherry Levine.Com Uh I Think That'S Um I Am Familiar With It I Believe That'S Um Michael Manenberg'S Site No Yeah Yeah It Is And It'S It'S Like Actually I Actually Went To School With Michael Oh Cool Although He He Graduated Right Before I Did So I I Know I Know Michael Yeah It'S A Really Great Early Example Of The The Ambigu Ambiguity And The Blurred Lines Of Authorship Right I Mean It'S A It'S A Website That Will Print Out A Certification Of A Photo Of A Photo That You Can Own Right I Think That'S A Brilliant Commentary On What Is Authorship And What Is Transformative And I'M I We'Re Seeing Things Now Like You Have Well You Had Tokenized Tweets A Twitter Account That Would Essentially Tokenize Any Tweet That You Commented On Below It And Create An Nft Out Of It That You Can Then Buy And Own Which We Later Discovered Was Actually Just Ownership Of The Url That Hosted The Tweet Which Is A Weird Thing But We'Re Seeing A Lot Of People Sort Of Capitalizing On A Moment Here To Take Art Or To Make Things And To To Assign Ownership To It And I I Want To I Want To Know If You Have Any Position On How Blockchain Or How Nfts Are Are Impacting Fair Use Or Impacting Specifically Um The Sec Section 107 Of The Copyright Like I Do You See Anything Changing Right Now Or In The Near Future Uh Because Of These Technologies Because Of These New Systems Yeah I Mean I I Definitely Have Some Thoughts On Nfts I Um But They Actually Don'T Have That Much To Do With Copyright Because I Think That Actually The The Same Considerations Still Apply Which Is The Sort Of Transformative Test Right Right Um I Mean I Guess You Can Look At The Notion Of Transformative And Maybe We Should From A Few Different Ways But Before We Do That You Know I Wonder If It Would Behoove You Know The Audience Or Whatever Just To Just To Maybe Talk A Little Bit About Like What We Mean By Transformative Right As You As You Noted A Few Minutes Ago Judge Lavalle Wrote This Essay In The Harvard Law Review In 1990 Called Toward A Fair Use Standard And It Was In That Text That He Introduces This Notion Of Transformative Fair Use Right Um So Fair Use First Of All We Should Just Make Very Clear That Fair Use Is This Concept Wherein The Law Recognizes That In Some Instances Artists Authors Musicians What Have You Cultural Producers In General Necessarily Will Have To Copy Some Part Of A Pre-Existing Work Of Art Or Pre-Existing Song Or Pre-Existing You Know Cultural Expression In Order To Realize Their Own Expression Right And That The Law Should Not Be So Inflexible As To Prohibit Such Things And In Fact The Law Should Instead Be Flexible Enough To Let Artists Kind Of You Know You Know Copy Things When They When When It Behooves Sort Of The The Public Good In A Sense So We Should Not Make A Law That Says You Can'T Copy But We Shouldn'T Make A Law That Says You Can Copy Anything Instead What Fair You Says You Know In General You Probably Shouldn'T Copy But There May Be Some Circumstances Where Copyright Or Sorry Copying Is Allowable Because In The Specific Context And Here'S Why Right Now That Becomes A Huge Question What Is What Are The Circumstances Under Which Copying Is Permissible And This Idea Of Fair Use And Transformative Fair Use Specifically Is That If The Secondary Expression The Appropriating Expression Is Somehow Transformative Of The Original Expression Right If You Take A Photograph Of Prince Which Was A You Know I Believe It Was A Black And White Photograph Um Fairly Uh Why You Know Wide Ranging In Its Gray Scales It Was A Fairly Continuous Tone Photograph And Then You Enlarge It You You Know Blow Up You Know Make It Very High Contrast You Add Some Colors To It Does That Constitute A Transformation Right We Might Say Yes Maybe That'S A Formal Transformation Right We Take One Thing That Looks Like This And We Can Still See The Resemblance In The Second Thing But It Is Also Noticeably Different Right Um The Courts In This Case Said That'S Not Transformative Because The Second Notion Or The Second Way Of Thinking About Transfer Transformative Fair Use Is That By Taking Something I Think Michael Mandenberg'S Website Actually Is A Good Example Even Though He'S Really Not Changing The Formal Aspects Of The Sherry Levine Photographs All That Much He'S Changing The Way You Think About These Kinds Of Things Right That'S So Subjective It'S It'S Super Super Subjective And Honestly I Don'T Know That That Would Fly In A Court Of Law But I As An Artist Do Believe That That Is A Kind Of A Transformative Fair Use So This Gets Into I Mean You'Re Pointing To Something Which Is The It'S Super Subjective All Of This Stuff Is Very Very Subjective Yeah It'S Super It Couldn'T Be Any More Gray And It Couldn'T Be Any More Um Example Specific I Mean You Really Can'T Make Generalizations About What Constitutes Transformative Fair Use Or Not Because It Just Has To Be Done On The Case By Case Space What Happens In The Case Of Or Like Why Why Is It More Uh Acceptable For Someone To Write About A Song In A Book And To Reference Even The Lyrics Of The Song In The Book Or Maybe Not To Reference The Lyrics But Just To Mention That The Song Was Playing And That'S Okay But Actually Using The Song In Your Short Film Or In Your Video Is Not Okay Do You Have Any Idea Why That'S Like Why That Passes And The Other Doesn'T Like I Think I Was Reading Uh Murakami Book And He Mentions He Mentioned Like A Queen Song I Think And And The Feeling That It Evoked In Him And Like A Certain Part Of The Song And I Was Like That'S Just Like Putting It In Your Film I Know The Song I Know The Lyrics I'M Hearing It In My Head Right Now And That'S Okay But It'S Not Okay For Me To Use The Song Itself Yeah I I Don'T Have A Great Answer For That Other Than To Say For Hundreds Of Years Scholars Have Been Writing Things Uh In Inciting Other Scholars As Work Um So You Know And I'M Sure You Both Know This Very Well When You Read Like An Academic Book Off Of A University Press Um You Know You'Re Not Considered A Serious Scholar If You Don'T Reference Other Scholarly Works So You Almost Have To Sample In A Sense Other Scholarly Works Right So Your Book Just Won'T Be Taken Seriously Unless It Has Footnotes And And You Go Seek Though Oh They Got That Idea From This Book And What Have You Here'S Your Bibliography Um Because It It Sends A Message Like You Did Your Homework Right You Really Know This You'Re Really An Expert So That That Is A Long-Standing Tradition That You Know When An Author Writes A Book They Don'T You Know Go Contact The The You Know The Presses That Produced The 250 Books That They Cited In Their Own Book To Get Permission To Like You Know Quote Such And Such Said This In This Book They Just Do It That'S Just Understood It'S A It'S A It'S The Act Of Sharing Knowledge Which Again Is Part Of The General Mission Of Higher Education Right Um So So To Me Your Question Is Why Don'T We Do That Like In Other Sort Of Domains Of Culture Right If You Make A Song And You Um You Know Include Some Snippet Of A Song Into Your Song Well You Know Why Is That Why Is That A Problem But The Other The Book Thing Is Not Or Vice Versa Right Think About It From The Other Way Um I Don'T Have A Good Answer For That Other Than To Say That Song Is Um Ostensibly The Original Song Let'S Say Is Ostensibly Already A Product It'S Already A Kind Of It'S Already A Commodity In A Sense And So We'Re Again This Kind Of Gets Reduced To Um You Know Economics Right If The If The Original Song Is Already A Commodity Even If You I Mean I Think It'S Stupid I Think You Should Absolutely Be Able To Sample And Include And Re-Contextualize Uh Uh You Know A Drum Beat Or A Guitar Riff Or What Have You But Since The Original Song Already Started Out As A Nice Little Packaged You Know Cultural Commodity Um I Think That'S Where The Difference Is Whereas In At Least In Academia Um You Know No No Academic Rights Books To Make Money They Write Books To You Know If You If You Make Like Five Thousand Dollars From Royalties From A University Press Book You As A Professor You'Re Doing Pretty Good Right So Just The Money Thing Is Just Such Of So Far Away In The Conversation It Really Is About Sort Of Knowledge Sharing Whereas I Think The Money And The In The Market Factors Are So Upfront In Places Like Music Sampling Or You Know Including A Snippet Of A Movie In Your Movie Or Or Whatnot So Yeah Yeah And I Guess That'S Definitely A Different Uh It'S Not Infringing I Guess On Any Of The Market Potential Of That Song At All So Yeah I Mean With Your Morakami Example You Know Nobody Nobody Walks Into Uh You Know A Music Store Or A Bookstore And In A State Of Confusion Like Walks Out With A Comic Book Thinking That They Bought A Queen Song Right Oh This Isn'T Oh What Have I Done Right What Am I I Went In Here To Buy The Queen Song And Somehow I Came Out With This More Comic Book I'M Confused Because I Thought They Were The Same Thing Like Nobody Confuses Them Right Yeah Whereas Whereas It Gets Very Blurry When We Start Talking About You Know A Song That'S Made Up Of Samples And How Long Is The Sample And How Much Does It Recontextualize The Overall Song And And And I Think That All That'S Very Debatable But Again The Record Companies Because They'Re Interested In Making Money Are Just Going To Try To Shut That Conversation Down And Just Say All Sampling Is De Facto Infringement In Fact We'Re Going To Build An Algorithm To Preclude That Or To Foreclose Even The Possibility Of That Right Yeah Do You Do You Imagine That That Changes Or That Technology Will Ever Have An Influence Over That Actually I Was Reading Today About Uh The Iscc Which Is This Platform For Essentially Creating Dna For Digital All Kinds Of Digital Work Like Not Even Just Visual Stuff But But Basically How I Imagine It I Don'T Know Don'T Quote Me On This I Don'T Know If This Is Actually True But How I Imagine It Is It Just Creating Such A Big Database Of Different Kinds Of Visual Works That Using Machine Learning They Can Deduce What Kind Of Work It Is And What What Other Works Are Like It Like The Same Way You Like Say Is This A Picture Of A Cat No Yes No Like Then Like The Machine Kind Of Knows What The Future Is Yeah Yeah So I Think We'Re Seeing Technologies Emerge That Are Attempting To Give Visual Works Dna Do You Imagine That If This Were To Be The Case We Could Sort Of Cut Out The Need To Have The Human Element Be Part Of It Yeah Yeah Or Is That A Possibility In Your Head In The Future Or Is That Something That We'Re Always Going To Be Dealing With Um I I Hope There'S Still Some Human Element Involved I Mean I I It Makes Me Very Uncomfortable This Idea That Students Decide What Is Right Because That'S Just That'S Just Like Not That Far Away From Terminator In Life Right Yeah Um Yeah But I I I Mean I Do Think That There Will Be Novel Ways To Reassess The Notion Of Formal Transformation Of Conceptual Transformation Of Making Things Uh To Change The Context Of Things I Will Also Say This You Know Even As I Said A Few Minutes Ago That The Law Is Always Trying To In A Sense Play Catch-Up Um If I Mean And I'M Going To Speak Specifically About The United States Right Now If You Think About Who Actually Are What Comprises The Judiciary In The United States Right Now Mostly Old White Men Yeah Right Um You Know There Are Probably A Handful Of People Of Color Or You Know Women Or A Combination Thereof Or You Know There Are Other Shades In That Spectrum But If We'Re Honest With Ourselves It'S Kind Of Mostly Old White Men And It'S Not Only Old White Men It'S More Particularly Like You Know People Who Did Not Grow Up In The Context Of Of You Know The Social Media Sort Of You Know World That We Now Inhabit Yeah Right So Even Just There Is Already Kind Of An Old-Fashioned Kind Of Way Of Thinking About These Already Built Into The Law And And The Reason Why I'M Saying This Is Because That Will Change There Are People In Law Schools Right Now And Even You Know Or Or Clerking And Being Assistants Or Clerking For Judges Right Now That Were That Are In Their Late 20S Or Early 30S And Who Have Always You Know Have Been Part Of Facebook And Social Media And Instagram Just As You And I Have Um And Who Will Have This Just Kind Of Like Built-In Innate Sort Of More Maybe Accommodating Understanding Of The Nature Of Copying And The Reality Of Copying And Those People Will Become Judges And You Know People Who Will Comprise The Judiciary At Some Point So I Do Think That This Will Shift Over Time And I Always Find It Incredible When You Read The Final Opinions Of Say The Warhol Case And Whatnot You Know These Are People Who Did Not Grow Up In The Social Media Milia That We Find Ourselves In But They'Re Also Not People That Are In The Art World Or Understand Art From A Conceptual Or Philosophical Perspective Most Of Them I Would Imagine Like A Judge Trying To Understand The Intention Of A Work Is Much Different Than A Collector Or Or A Fan Trying To Understand An Artist'S Intention Or Work Right Yeah They'Re They'Re Very They'Re Very Intelligent People But They'Re Not Specialists In The World Of Art And And I Would Say That You Know This Maybe This Is Where I'M Kind Of Torn Because There'S Part Of Me That Thinks Like Yeah They Should Know About How Art Works And There'S Also Part Of Me That Says It'S Precisely Their Lack Of Knowledge That Provides That Kind Of You Know At Least Attempt At A Kind Of An Objectivity In A Fairness Or A Neutrality Or Something Like That But Then In That Case You Might As Well Just Entrust It To The Machine Learning Algorithm It'S Like Why How Is It If It'S Supposed To Be Sort Of Attached And Unbiased Or Ignorant In A Way Well The Reason Oh The Reason Why We Don'T Is Because And I'M Sorry I Can'T Pull From Anything You Know Other Than Like Corny You Know Hollywood References Or Something Is Because Over And Over Again We Are You Know Given Sort Of Dystopian Future Scenarios Where Machines Have Kind Of Made Taken Over Decision-Making Processes I Mean I'M Thinking Of The Movie War Games You See That Like 80S Yeah Yeah It'S Like We Get The Machine To Decide When To Do Nuclear War Take The Human Element Out Of It That That Narrative Of Like Let The Machine Do It Always Gets Us Into Trouble Um You Know There'S Some There'S A Kind Of An Imperfection With The Human Decision-Making Process That I Think Actually Reminds Us Precisely That We Are Human Even If Things Don'T Go Your Way Um Yeah So What Is Your Opinion On The Us'S Influence Over Fair Use And Copyright And The Global Conversation For Art Like Because I Think The Copyright Law In The States Has Is Heavily Referenced And Heavily Discussed In In All International Art Communities As Well Um I As Far As My Research Has Shown Me That The United States Intellectual Property Law Sort Of Regime I Guess Is Fairly Dominant It Is The One That Most Countries Sort Of In A Sense Model Their Own Laws After Um But I Will Say That While The United States Copyright Law For Example Is Far From Perfect And Is In Need Of Overhaul And It'S Getting That Overhaul I Think Actually Um It Actually Is Is Surprisingly I Think Lenient I Mean Even That There That There Is Even A Fair Use Clause Built Into The United States Copyright Law Already Says Something Yeah Right Yeah The Reason I Ask That The Reason I Ask That Is Because If We'Re If Things Are Going To Be Decentralizing More And More And If We Have A Decentralized Registry For Copywriter For Content I Do You Think That That Influence Is Still Going To Extend Into The Creation Of Those Platforms Do You Think That It Makes Sense To To Do That Or Would It Be Better To Start Fresh Or To Re-Imagine The Way These Things Work Oof That'S A Tough One Because I Think That Technology You Know Again As I Mentioned A Few Minutes Ago The Law Is Always Trying To Play Catch Up And I Feel Like Like It'S Just Getting Farther And Farther I Think Technology Is Just Moving So Fast That That You Know I'M Just Thinking Of Like The Average Age Of A United States Senator Or Congressperson And You Know Just This Their Thinking Of The World And How Fast Even Just As You Said Even Within The Last Five Or Ten Years And The Whole Notion Of Nfts And Where Will We Be In 10 Years From Now Technology Is Just So I Think Overwhelming The Law Um That It'S You Know Sometimes I Do Think That All Of These Kind Of Academic Discussions About Copyright Are Almost Superfluous In So Far As Like That That'S Just Like You Know I Will Say This One Of The Arguments That The Copy Left 20 Years Ago Was That Oh My Gosh Copyright Laws Are So Draconian They'Re Inhibiting Our Capacity To Freely Express Ourselves Everything'S Being Locked Down Oh My Gosh The Sky Is Falling I Don'T Know About You But I See So Much Copying Everywhere All The Time Appropriation All The Time People Sharing And Streaming And Copying And Duplicating And Remixing And I Just I Just Simply Don'T Buy The Argument That That We'Re Being Stifled Creatively I Think We'Re Actually In The Most Sort Of Creative Um Time In In The History Of The Human Race Maybe Right Now So Um Yeah Yeah And I Think It'S Only Become More So And More As It Becomes As You Say As It Becomes More Decentralized And Um That Sort Of Laws That Nation States Make Will Have Some Impact But Um And You Know Will Continue To Have An Impact But Yeah I Just Don'T See That Any Kind Of Yeah I I Agree That We Have The An Ability Now Like Never Before To Copy And Remix But That'S Why Sort Of I Reached Out In The Beginning Because I Think This Is That Golden Age For Copying And Remixing And Appropriating But I I Think It'S Going In The Direction Of Being Like With The Introduction Of Content Id Youtube Completely Changed After That The Whole Landscape Of Content Changed After Content Id Was Introduced And Creators Are Constantly Having To Battle Copyright Strikes And And Having To Defend Themselves And And I Think What Would The Platform Look Like Now If That Wasn'T The Case Obviously There Wouldn'T Be As Much Incentive For Advertisers But It Also Would Be A Much More I Think A Much More Creative Place In My Opinion Some Of The Content That I Love The Most Is Is Like I Love Commentary Channels I Love Uh I Love Video Essays I Love These Kinds Of Channels That Need To Use Other Work And They'Re Getting The Ability To Use It But It'S Also Still Got This Barrier Yeah They Saw The Jump Registration Yeah Yeah I Hear You On That I Sympathize With That Um Yeah Um It'S Funny Though Because I Have Made I Mean This Just To Give You A Corny Example I Have An Instagram Account Like Like Many People And I Have On Occasion Made Films Of My Daughter And Put Like A A Pop Soundtrack Behind It Like An 80S Song Behind It And I Will Occasionally In Fact I Just Got One The Other Day I Got A Little Notice From Instagram Saying That They'Re Making My My Work Inaccessible Video Blocked But Then If I Review It I Review What It Actually Says It Says Something Like Your Video Has Been Blocked Except In The Following Countries And Then It Goes On To List Like 50 Countries Including The United States Including Mexico Including Most Of The Eu And So I'M Like I Don'T Even Know What This Means And I Mean I Kind Of Do Know What It Means I Guess But I It Just Seems So Irrelevant And I Don'T Care And It Seems Like The People Yesterday Who Could See My Video Can Still See My Video Today And And Then I Even Got One Of These Messages That Said After Review We'Re Lifting The Block I Didn'T Even Submit An Appeal I Didn'T And I Didn'T Even Try To Contest It Like I Took Some You Know That Song From From The 80S I Forget The Band Was Called Forever Young I Want To Be Forever Anyway Corny Loved It I Was You Know 13 Years Old And That Came Out Loved It Roller Skated To That Etc But I Didn'T Even Contest It Yeah I Totally Took That Song It'S Nostalgic For Me And Then They Put It Back So So First I Get A Message That They'Ve Blocked My Video And Then I Got A Message They Unblocked My Video And Then They Can And Then So I'M Like I Don'T Even I Just Don'T I Don'T Know Where I'M Going With This Other Than To Say That We'Re Just We'Re Still Sharing There'S Still Maybe There Are Some Hoops To Jump And Whatnot But I Just I Just Um Where Does That Make Sense For You In That In This Case Like Where Does That Little Intervention Make Sense Is It For A Bigger Creator Or A Corporation Or Just Not Necessary On Instagram Forget About It Do You Think It Just Needs To Mature The Technology I Think For Personal Uses Are Completely Innocuous And That Should Be Allowed And I Think That'S The Majority Of These Cases And That Is One Of The Frustrating Things I Mean Yeah Um But Again I Got Unblocked After I Didn'T Even Do Any So I Don'T I You Know I I Just Don'T See Um Yeah It'S Not Really That Useful At Least It'S Not It'S Not Really That Intuitive Or That Clever But That'S The Core That'S The Punching Down Thing That I Where I Ride Part Ways With My Sort Of Otherwise Conservative Thinking Is Is That That Whole Punching Down Thing Somebody Like Bmi Or Or Capitol Records Trying To Go After A Soccer Mom Or Me Or Something You Know For Some Completely You Know A 30-Second Clip On Instagram For My Family You Know That'S Ridiculous I Wonder If There'S Going To Be A Point In The Future Where There Are Accounts That Are Allowed To Do That Kind Of Posting And Then Designated Accounts I Think There'S Also Been This Question Recently Of Like Celebrities Have To Verify Themselves On Social Media Right They Have To Say Like I Am This Person And I And I I Post And This Is These Are My Thoughts And Opinions But Other People Like Regular People Don'T Have To Do That And It'S It Is Kind Of Strange And I I Think That There'S Obviously A Lot Of How Rich Or Famous Does One Have To Be Before One Gets Yes To Get Verified Well Yeah Where Is The Threshold Where Does Your Brand Matter Enough That You Need To Be Like I'M That Person Or Do We Decide Like Everybody Needs To Be Verified In The Same Way That You Carry Around A Driver'S License Or You Have So That Way You'Re Sort Of Accountable But We Can Decide What Kind Of Restrictions To Place On You What Kind Of Uh Of Content You'Re Allowed To Share That That Seems A Bit Strange Too Actually It Sounds Really Really Dystopian And Kind Of Scary I Don'T I Don'T Disagree Well So You Have A Seven-Year-Old Is She Exploring Any Games Or Technologies That Have That You'Ve Kind Of Been Intrigued By In Terms Of Like The The Art Of It The The Um The Assets That Like Do Did Those Worlds Interest You At All Are You Are You Aware Of What'S Going On There I Am Well At The Very Least I'M Very Very Conscious Of The Degree With Which My Seven-Year-Old Is Extremely Digitally Savvy Um You Know I'M Sure You'Ve Heard The Term Digital Native It'S Really Incredible How Adept She Is At Navigating A Phone And Navigating A Tablet And Navigating A Computer She She Is One Silly Example She Loves Legos Natalia Loves Legos And She Actually Has A Little Lego App On Her Phone Which Lets Users Take Pictures Of Their Lego Creations And Then Post Them It'S Kind Of Like I Can'T Talk Right Now It'S Kind Of Like A It'S Kind Of Like A You Know It'S Like A Facebook For Seven-Year-Old Lego Enthusiast But She'S Like In The Bed This Morning Looking At Going Oh That'S A Cool Post Oh Somebody Posted It Like I'M Like You'Re Seven How Do You Know About Like Posting And Liking Pictures That Other Seven-Year-Olds Are Doing So She'S Already Getting Ensconced Into That World And I'M Very Um There'S A Part Of Me That'S A Little Concerned About That What Is That What Are You Concerned About Exactly Like What What About That Uh Worries You Um Just That That You Know The Slippery Slope Into Um You Know You Know The Representation Of Yourself Online And Particularly I Have A Daughter So It'S Like How Young Girls And Young Women Represent Themselves Online And Just You Know I Mean I See My I Saw My Daughter A Few Years Ago Before She Even Really Knew How To Do This Stuff Holding My Phone Without My Phone Even Being On Just Like A Black Brick Like It Is Now And Sort Of Like Posing Like Selfie Posing Like Like Going Through The Motions Of Selfie Posing Without Actually Even Taking A Selfie Just Like This That That Sort Of Naturalizing Tendency To Describe Just Automatically In The World Of The Image Um And So That'S Just A Little Bit Like Ah You Know She'S Seven She'S Seven You Know What Happens When She'S 17 Yeah Last Question Anything That You'Ve Seen In The Technology Space Where It Relates To Art That You'Re Excited About That Maybe We Haven'T Talked About A A Software A Service Um Just Some News That You Want To Share That Our Audience Might Be Interested In Yeah The Only Thing I Would Say Is I'M Really I I Actually Don'T Go To The Movies That I'M Certainly Not During The Pandemic But Even Before The Pandemic Just The Nature Of Being A Single Father Just Didn'T Really Get Out To The Movies As Much As I Might Have Used Two Years Ago And So But I Do Like To Try To Keep Up With The State Of The Art In Terms Of Like Where Computer Generated Imagery Is And I'M Just Continue To Be Amazed At The Level Of Sort Of Realism Um That Is Happening In Computer Generated Imagery And The Last Probably Version I Saw And It'S Probably Even Better This Was Just From A Few Years Ago And The The Blade Runner Remake Or Not Remake But The Blade Owner 2049 Where They Re-Did Sean Young I Think They Come They Made It Completely Cgi Sean Young Because Sean Young Is Whatever 60 Years Old Now Um And So Harrison Ford Meets A Computer Generated Sean Young And How Real That Looked And At The Same Time That Kind Of Uncanny Valley Of Like It Just Looked Oddly Slightly Off But That Just Continues To Be Worked On And So I Think That'S That'S Something That Just Continues To Fascinate Me Is Like Where Is The Technology Going In Terms Of Rendering At What Point What We Need Actors Anymore Because We Can Just Like Make Them This Is I Mean It'S Not Not To Harken Back To Copyright And Ip But Like What Does It Mean For Actors When Someone Can Deep Fake Their Entire Role Into A Film Yeah Yeah I Mean I Assume You Probably Saw That Tom Cruise Deep Fake From A Couple Months Ago Or It'S Like Totally Convincingly Tom Cruise I Think Are You Talking About The Corridor Digital One I Can'T Remember Probably I Think You Probably Are Because Those Guys Have Been Really Pushing The Envelope In Terms Of Like Small Small Studio Defects It'S Scary And At Some Point It'S Like Do You Just License The Likeness From The Actor And Just Have An Impersonator Much Cheaper Do The Performance Or Just Completely Cg Like What Yeah Where Does The That'S Going To Be An Interesting Development Legally Like The Law Is Going To Need To Do It A Lot I Think So Too That'S So That'S Kind Of Just Yeah That'S What I'M Kind Of Fascinated Is How How Close Can We Get To The Facsimile Or The Emulation Of The Of This Stuff Yeah Yeah I Think Um There Was Also There'S A Film Coming Out Either This Year Or Next Where They'Ve Cast James Dean As The As The Lead Which Is Like Wow Why Why Also There Are Plenty Of Living Actors That Need Work And Are Great But I Have A Question Actually Like Um Since I I Want To Know More About Intellectual Property Copyright Where Can I Start Like Do You Have Any Recommendations Like Reading Um For Beginners Yeah This Might Not Be The Sexiest Answer But Actually Uh Copyright.Gov Which Is The Website For The United States Copyright Office There'S A Whole Ton Of Like You Know Um Intro To Like What Is Copyright Law What Is Fair Use How Does It Work Um They'Re Actually Quite Friendly And Accessible And Thorough Code Of Best Practices For Uh For Fair Use In Visual Art That Is The Document That I Mentioned Earlier That The College Art Association Put Out Which Is A It'S About A 20-Page Pdf That'S Targeted Specifically To People Working In The Arts Sector Artists Art Historians Curators Um That'S Another Great Just Little Trimmer Great Question Nate I'M So Glad We Got A Chance To Talk I Really Enjoy Getting To Know You And I'M Glad You Joined Us And Maybe At Some Point We Can Have You Back On Again Happy To Do It Let'S Keep In Touch I Enjoyed This Definitely Cool All Right I'M Gonna Stop The Recording There Okay So Izzy'S Having Some Technical Difficulties And She'S Uh Her Her Headphones Have Died So As He'S Already Saying Goodbye Because She Has No Idea What'S Happening Her Headphones Are Still Are Still Dead Uh That'S It For This Episode Of The Value Art Podcast Guys Thank You Again For Joining By The Time This Episode Airs The Auction Will Have Already Ended For The For Banksy Spike I Can'T Wait To Discuss It I Can'T Wait To See So As Always If You Want To Reach Out To Us And Give Us Some Feedback Or Communicate With Us Directly You Can Reach Us On Our Subreddit Twitter And Instagram On All Of Our Social Channels Uh Yeah So That'S It So From Me And On Behalf Of Izzy Who Cannot Communicate Thank You For Joining Us This Week And We'Ll See You Next Week Ciao Say Bye Izzy Way Bye Okay Bye Ah

Meet your hosts:

Mark Fielding

Producer

Eddie Contento

Host

Izzy Godina

Co-Host

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